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And I appreciate the clarification. I think fientists would really benefit from a resource like this book, though it could be a disaster if non-fientists think the advice is for them!
I think I actually stumbled upon this strategy a while ago over in the Bogleheads forum when I was researching another idea. Glad you enjoyed it!
Similar to your front-loading ideas, it makes sense to convert from T. However, if your holdings decline substantially in value at any point during the year, simply perform a Roth Re-characterization to undo the conversion, then convert again at the lower value to decrease your tax burden.
They max out 3 new Roths at the beginning of the year invested in various ways. Then before the end of the year they recharacterize the 2 losers back to just taxable investments.
Sounds like a task for for me. It was a thread on the bogleheads forum: Do they not run into issues if all three accounts go up? As long as you are just recharacterizing the conversion back to the traditional IRA and it is done before the deadline it is just like you never made the conversion.
The earnings are just treated like earnings in the traditional IRA. If you are contributing directly to a Roth IRA then you can withdraw the contribution and earnings by the tax deadline and just pay capital gains on the earnings, there is no penalty tax.
This scenario gets a bit tricky if you have gains in all of your Roth accounts, as Garrett describes. When I see some traffic come over to my site from forum.
As someone who hates self promotion, I really appreciate when other people share my articles so thanks a lot for being so kind to me over in the MMM forums!
Great call with recharacterizing after a big drop, by the way. I should point out that you can only reconvert either 30 days after the recharacterization or the year following the year of the conversion, whichever is later see this IRS FAQ for more info.
Thanks for the clarification. Keep cooking up the experiments! So in the first example when your stocks grow and your bonds fall, you keep the stocks in the Roth and recharacterize the bonds.
AdZ, I would suggest you ask that question here: As James said, you could open a Vanguard brokerage account and invest in the ETFs instead of the mutual funds.
Just make sure you sign up for electronic document delivery so you can avoid any fees that would be charged to accounts with low balances.
So at the end of the day, you would have moved x shares from your Traditional into your Roth and then moved x shares back the value of those shares is irrelevant since you just hit the undo button so the IRS just ignores the entire thing.
I think is important to remember that only the converted amount can be withdrawn from the Roth conversion ladder before This means that this method is not going to let you withdraw extra funds in early retirement.
This would still have the advantage of avoiding losses in the account occurring in the first year, but during the five year waiting period before withdrawal those should be recovered by gains anyway.
It would also still leave more in the Roth if your goal is solely to get that tax free conversion even though you cannot spend it until If your goal is to get as much out of the IRA system as possible before This leaves the unwithdrawable gains in the traditional IRA to be converted again some other year, while leaving the lower or reduced amount in the Roth where it could free up future market increases for conversion ladder withdrawal.
Michael it seems you are looking at this backwards. You want to convert assets that have low values, or that increase quickly in value after conversion.
You are correct that you can only draw the principal before I actually addressed both goals in my post. SEPP is not an effective way to get money out of the Roth, so if you are relying on the gains before retirement age maximizing the amount of money that can be withdrawn early, including gains, is important.
It all comes down to where your money is located and your goals. You might as well just plan for a certain growth rate and then convert the amount you want to withdraw from the Roth after the five years.
On the other hand, if most of your money is in a traditional IRA and you have just enough total savings that with expected growth to meet your needs, then your saved money and its growth need to be accessible.
This means only converting what is needed for withdrawal and leaving as much of the gain as possible in the traditional IRA to be extracted later.
Choosing the losing horse lets you use previous gains in the Roth I believe, I am not a tax expert because withdrawal from the Roth occur based off of total value and not based on individual accounts.
Basically this method can be used to unlock gains in the Roth IRA before you reach What about non-qualified dividends?
Surely if you have any of those in your investments, you will have to pay taxes on them. Is there some way you can guarantee this?
Another awesome post from the Mad Fientist! In your last example market value decreased , what would you do? I think I would stick with the Roth conversion to watch the last 9.
Fresh money avoids the 30 day wait on re-conversions, since it is different money. Like many of your posts Madfientist, I will end up reading this over and thinking about it off and on for the next week, so job well done sir.
Just wait until after FI and then you can have fun with all of this. Wow, after thinking through all the scenarios, it seems like there is pretty much no downside to this method.
If one or both funds go positive for the year, you come out with some great tax benefits. If both go negative for the year, you have the ability to perform TGH, which is an equally valuable tax avoidance tool.
Basically, you get to maximize any part of the outcome matrix. Is there value in rebalancing early the next year to re-align the tax status of the different assets?
As far as rebalancing is concerned, I treat that as a completely separate activity and only worry about that after taxes have been minimized.
Just added a link to this one to your guest post on my site: First time commenter here, but have been following for awhile.
Thank you for sharing your strategies with us. I still have a couple years to FI, but I will probably be doing some Roth conversion this year, as we added a solar system to our house and have some sizable nonrefundable credits coming.
Even though we changed our withholdings early in the year, I think we will not owe enough to take full advantage of the credits.
Oh, this is such a great plan! This is an awesome benefit, but my suspicion is it will rarely apply. These estimates are based on the standard deduction and personal exemption multiplied by Among the FI crowd, such high pretax balances would be an oddity with the IRS limits for contributions.
The IRA also should have gains that increase its value at the time of conversion. This will probably get lost in the nesting, but there are benefits to leaving funds in an old k also, such as being able to access the funds at 55 vs.
If you go in blind and roll over a large k — even this Horses strategy could cost you in the long run if you pay tax on what seemed to be a good over-conversion only to have the markets pull a a few years later.
But I look forward to being ER to have more tax space to play these games! The point about the different tax treatment of k and traditional IRA is important.
Steve, you can only access k funds at age 55 without penalty if you leave the job your k is associated with after you turn 55 or older.
Therefore, for most early retirees, a k and an IRA are quite similar when it comes to withdrawal age restrictions.
There are a couple of caveats though. The first is having a dual-income situation where both can fully load their ks.
The second is the Traditional IRA phase-out for those covered by an employer plan. I imagine this will be the case for many people who are capable of maxing out their k.
This is a crucial point. The darn trad IRA increased in value while I was contributing to it! And then its continued growth could mean one ends up with RMDs whose size threatens or actually does push you into a higher tax bracket, changes your LTCG rate, and causes more Soc Sec to be taxed, etc.
But I agree, the horse race might not be worth obsessing about if tax-free Roth conversions can handily convert your entire trad IRA into Roth IRA within the time period you want it to.
I tried to stick with the Horse Race theme! I agree that if you will have no trouble draining your Traditional IRA, you might as well save yourself the hassle and just roll over normally.
This is an awesome strategy… I desire to build a ROTH ladder for my early retirement plans, but never thought of converting more than just a small amount over my current expenses to cover future inflation.
I am not sure on all of the required processes involved with the re-characterization, but I have quite a few years before I need to know.
Hello Brandon, Are you going to FinCon ? Love to have your opinion… We have always been big fans of yours. It can be something you easily shoot on your SmartPhone!
Select the distance factor of the race and then enter the value of the factor. For instance, if the race is 1 and a quarter miles, select miles and enter 1.
If the race is 6 furlongs, select furlongs and enter 6. Fractional parts of a factor should be give in decimal values. A table is given below the calculator for such entries.
You may also use our Fraction To Decimal Calculator if you wish. Enter the Official time of the race in minutes and seconds. Click on the Calculate button for the results.
While this is designed for thoroughbred horse track racing, known as the Sport Of Kings, it works just fine with other forms of horse racing as well, such as harness, Arabian or steeplechase.
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